Speaker 1: 0:33

You don't have to have it all figured out on day one.

Speaker 2: 0:36

Exactly. Shine that light across the leaders and let them know it's okay. You don't have to be perfect for day one. You can work as you build.

Speaker 1: 0:44

Yep, and yeah, stuff's going to go wrong, but you know that's how you learn.

Speaker 2: 0:49

Exactly.

Speaker 1: 0:51

Once again, welcome to the Digital Customer Experience podcast with me, Alex Turkovich. So glad you could join us here today and every week as we explore how digital can help enhance the customer and employee experience. My goal is to share what my guests and I have learned over the years so that you can get the insights that you need to evolve your own digital programs. If you'd like more info, need to get in touch or sign up for the weekly companion newsletter that has additional articles and resources in it. Go to digitalcustomersuccesscom. For now, let's get started.

Speaker 1: 1:24

Hello and welcome back to the Digital CX Podcast, the show where we talk about all things digital in CX. It's episode 95 and we're back to the interviews today. Today I'm joined by Justin Neal, who is a digital CS operations guy and all around super smart, super experienced, lots of stuff to share. He's got an incredible background, including stints at companies like IBM and VMware and SolarWinds. He's done some consulting, has a ton of certifications to his name, so he's very well experienced, super knowledgeable and brings a lot of great little tidbits to the table. Please enjoy my conversation with Justin Neal, because I sure did. Justin, I want to welcome you to the DCX podcast. It's super nice to have you. I appreciate you joining. Thank you.

Speaker 2: 2:13

Thank you, yeah, for sure, I think we super nice to have you. I appreciate you, john.

Speaker 1: 2:15

Thank you, thank you, yeah, for sure I think we have lots to talk about, okay. So of course, I do a little bit of digging on my guests and do some, you know, linkedin stalking, as you have to, sure, and it is insane to look at your profile because you have a lot of cool kind of work experience right, ibm, vmware, I think I saw maybe SolarWinds and part of an acquisition, maybe something like that. But you have a crap ton of certifications. You have a master's degree. I think you're working on your MBA. Like do you have time for anything else? Like what's going on with that? Like, do you have time for anything else?

Speaker 2: 2:55

Like, what's going on with that? Yeah, I try to stay, you know, stay busy, and I found both all these things to be very enriching and helpful as I continue to learn. And now I think learning is a lifelong journey, right, and I hope to teach my kids that too, and I kind of want them to see me as a doer dad that's always kind of looking for stuff and finding out information and learning new things. So I think it's important to instill those values, so I certainly try to live those myself as well.

Speaker 1: 3:20

That's really cool, awesome stuff, like you know. Obviously a lot of it is ops related. No surprise, there some good artificial intelligence stuff. So I love folks who are staying current with those kinds of things. Give us a little bit of a taste of you know your background and what led you to where you are today and what you're doing today.

Speaker 2: 3:41

Yeah. So I would say my experience has been a little bit, you know, it's shifted, it's changed a bit through time. I started out of college you know a bright, young lad and wasn't really sure what I wanted to do. So, you know, got into a little sales, a little bit into IT. Recruiting kind of opened the doors for, oh, this whole world of tech and IT. And you know, what can I do with that? Where can I go?

Speaker 2: 4:01

I knew I wasn't really looking to stay in recruiting forever, but then I kind of landed in an account management role at a really small startup and then shifted over to the early version of customer success at a small startup that was kind of looking to grow and continuing to grow and I was their, I think, second or third CSM hire back in 2015.

Speaker 2: 4:20

And that was the company that then was acquired by SolarWinds.

Speaker 2: 4:23

So I kind of steered the ship towards that CS focus again when CS was brand new but the function was kind of being built out.

Speaker 2: 4:30

And then from there I learned kind of both the what, what CSM does and how CS works, and the introduction to that and the ops side, or the back side of that, of building out a Gainsight instance, understanding how those tools connect and what kind of the admin type of work is and that sort of interested me and I sort of gravitated towards that and was lucky enough to then use that experience to shift over to a much larger company than IBM, and this was again back in 2018 when CS, ops, gainsight, digital, CS that was all still in its infancy. So I was lucky enough to be a part of that wave and part of that experience when it was brand new, especially at a large enterprise company like IBM. So, and since then I've really been lucky enough enough to again kind of be a part of the industry, part of those experiences, part of the growth of all this to kind of what it's become today.

Speaker 1: 5:20

Yeah, that's cool. What a what an awesome journey. Sounds like you got in at the right time too.

Speaker 2: 5:26

Timing is as I say, timing is everything, and I think it certainly was a key piece for me.

Speaker 1: 5:30

Yeah, Timing is everything for sure. And yeah, and you earned your Gainsight stripes, which is awesome. Anybody who's been deeply involved with Gainsight implementation or managing a Gainsight instance. I have mad props for having been there, done that.

Speaker 2: 5:45

It's fun the small, like tiny startup to ibm and like the extreme difference was so crazy to me, yeah, and I don't even think I realized how complex even an ibm was, because that was like my first true experience with a large scale kind of crm tool and those integrations and then even going from there to some of the other companies I've been, I'm like oh wow, ibm was even a more complex piece than anything else even I've seen since then. So it was a nice first taste into that sort of experience.

Speaker 1: 6:18

Yeah, for sure, and you're right. Like those experiences between you know small startup and large enterprise business are massive. It brings me back to my days at Dell, where it's like a few hundred other people within the same organization doing the same thing Super fun, cool. So what are you doing today?

Speaker 2: 6:43

So today I have been venturing out on my own doing a little consulting. My time with VMware wrapped up mid last year. Vmware part of the Broadcom acquisition, you know I think that was a pretty big, well-known story. So that all happened late 2023 through mid 2024. I had a transition role where I helped kind of export some data, some kind of last minute gainsight changes, things like that. That was last summer.

Speaker 2: 7:09

I took on a short-term consulting role at Schneider Electric. So they're kind of dipping their toes into the CS, post-sales CRM, saas, digital transformation space. So they were kind of looking just for some general guidance on what does that look like and I kind of realized that I enjoy doing that. I enjoy looking at it from a larger scale, from a broader perspective and with the experience that I've got at these enterprise-level companies I can definitely provide some insights and value onto that. So branched out a little bit on my own doing a bit of my own consulting at the moment. So I've had some conversations with some smaller companies, some startups and people looking to kind of get into the experience. So that's been great and enjoyed doing that while I'm on the search.

Speaker 1: 7:51

Yeah, that's great, I love it. So, as part of your consulting world that you're in right now, as well as just in general helping others understand what it is you do, one of the things that I have routinely asked guests on the show about is how they describe digital CS or CX in kind of layman's terms to folks who don't really get it, because I mean even some CS folks there's still some gray area or some kind of this black box phenomena that happens with CS folks, as well as to whether we have digital CS or not. There's a lot of gray area around it. So how would you describe it to somebody who you were helping get their arms wrapped around digital?

Speaker 2: 8:38

Yeah, when I think about this, I think about again way back to IBM days, when we were starting to build what now is digital CS, but at the time we weren't even sure what to really call it. It was basically how do you build for the scale, how do you build for kind of a larger motion than this manual touch points, these things that our CSMs are doing? They're taking all their time up. So to me, it's the idea of using the technology, the tooling, things in place to build a scale, build for an automation, build for something that's going to be much more impactful than just an email or one phone call or one action. It's meant to be a true digital or a true automated outreach, so something that's designed to be built at scale, built for many different use cases. It can be applied to many different things and it can be through email, in-app you know different types of communication tools, but really it's the idea of building a practice, building a solution that's scalable and that can be built out for different things.

Speaker 1: 9:34

Yeah, I love that you led with the human element of it, because I've talked about it on the show till the cows come home.

Speaker 1: 9:41

But the fact that a lot of folks make the mistake of thinking that digital is purely tech touch and it is that right, but a big part of it is also putting stuff in place to make sure that your humans are operating as efficiently as possible, which, yeah, I think is super important. And also, I mean it kind of lends to my next question, right? So you and I are both taking part in MADEC's summit that's coming up April 2nd.

Speaker 2: 10:11

April 2nd.

Speaker 1: 10:12

Hey, so by the time you're listening to this it's about three weeks. So Matica's having the summit where you and I are both speaking at it, and I think one of the things you're talking about is related to how ops and kind of digital intersect. But I think one of the things that I've found with digital is that, invariably, the work of an operations team and the work of a digital team intersect squarely. In fact, there's a fair amount of folks who are running their digital program out of ops, not necessarily as a separate kind of situation. I wondered, without giving too much away, because I know you're talking about this at the summit, but have you seen that evolve over the last decade or so with regards to where digital lives and how they intersect with ops?

Speaker 2: 11:00

Absolutely so. Yes, I do plan on covering this in detail in about a month from now. So, definitely, if you have a chance to listen, please join the summit and if this is something of interest to you, which hopefully it is, please feel free to join that. So for me, I've been lucky enough to kind of again be a part of that since those IBM days early on, where we're looking at a tool like Gainsight and we're building it out as a CS ops team, figuring out all the different use cases of it, the different functionalities, including the email campaign functionality, and the ways you can build communication with the tool, and you're realizing that is a part of what the strategy for CS is not just building out a motion of what systems are going to do with the high-touch accounts or day-to-day, but also the scale, the SMB, the tech-touch segment.

Speaker 2: 11:47

Again back at IBM. This was a ton of customers, a ton of different segments that just had not been touched, has not been seen. We didn't really even know how to start with that right. So it was essentially building that as a part of the ops arm and building out these journeys and these plays and all these different things to kind of target those customers for the first time. So at that time it was how do we set this up, how do we build it out, and then kind of collect data and gather the information that we need to then make better decisions and kind of build actions around that.

Speaker 2: 12:16

But it's all built around the pillar of CSOps because you need those functions in place to be able to truly support that. So I would say the two can work hand in hand. Sometimes I've seen it like a UGG and a VMware, where ops sits in a separate seat and is supporting the CS function, the digital CS function. Sometimes I've seen it where digital CSMs can come in and actually I train them on how to use Gainsight and how to use some of these features and then they can do that self-service support where they're building their own campaigns and they're building their own kind of journeys, and I'm there to maybe support that with reporting or with kind of actions or things in Gainsight to then help them with that. Or sometimes just integrating with other tools like a Pendo or a WalkMe or in-app or some sort of tool that also kind of pulls into the game side and then you're seeing it as kind of a larger CS ops function, but again all focused on digital metrics and digital kind of motions.

Speaker 1: 13:05

So I've been lucky enough to again kind of see it in some different perspectives, in different ways, but they do go hand in hand and there's certainly ways to strategically kind of plan about how to properly structure a digital CS team or structure their organization around digital CS, and it annoys people when I answer it this way, but my answer is it really depends on what you're trying to accomplish and it depends on, honestly, who you have on your team too, because you know a lot of times, fundamentally speaking, right, when it comes to digital, there is a customer facing element of it. Whether that's a scaled team or digital CSMs or whatever you call them, right, there's kind of like this, the human facing element that is a result of some of these digital motions. Who are specifically tasked with creating these motions and building these motions and planning out how they're going to be implemented and what's going to happen, what the customer experience is, which tools need to be involved, what data do you need Like the list goes on and on. Right, and I think that's an interesting thing to think about, where, ok, maybe you have a program manager or a project manager or a set of program manager that are tasked with building these digital motions, and that's like where the partnership between operations and the ownership of the tools and the data comes together as basically this partnership to make it work.

Speaker 1: 14:39

But again, like I think you nailed it on the head when you said there's any number of ways to go about doing it, and you happen to have experience in a lot of those ways. Yep, absolutely yeah, as you're advising some of the customers that you're working with, are there any kind of trends that you're seeing currently in terms of what people are working on or things that you feel are common misnomers? I guess what we're trying to do is get a little bit of free advice to the audience. But, like, what are you seeing out there?

Speaker 2: 15:13

I think a common theme, especially this year, is more with less. I think it's a lot of smaller, maybe companies that are still trying to figure out how to invest in CS whether it's a startup that I'm talking to, that's oh, they have a CSM and has CS, but they don't know how to cover all these accounts. So they need to figure out how to cover more with the limited technology they have in place or the least amount of work that it would take to do that. So a lot of the time just trying to solve those issues of we have all this revenue it's uncovered, all of those issues of we have all this revenue it's uncovered, we don't have enough bandwidth to do that. So they think of things like digital CS or this type of motion to kind of solve that.

Speaker 2: 15:51

And I have to kind of be careful about that, because until you have the right again ops motion or tooling in place or the practices in place where you think you can kind of deal with all the different things you're going to have to deal with, like escalations or, you know, renewals or all the different functions that an ops team or an ops tool can support, you may not want to go down this path right, because you need to be able to think through the whole customer lifecycle and how to support that, whether it's I mean, if you have a CSM that can do that, sure, but if you're talking about a scale, you may not have the bandwidth, the depth of depth. So even if you can send out communication and maybe have someone that kind of manages that, you still need someone to truly build the operations piece underneath that, to be able to support it for getting the full customer's lifecycle.

Speaker 1: 16:40

Hey, I want to have a brief chat with you about this show. Did you know that roughly 60% of listeners aren't actually subscribed to the show, on whatever platform they're listening to it on? As you know, algorithms love likes. Ahead and follow the show. Leave a comment, leave a review. Anything that you want to do there really helps us to grow organically as a show. And while you're at it, go sign up for the companion newsletter that goes out every week at digitalcustomersuccesscom. Now back to the show.

Speaker 1: 17:22

Yeah that's so, so valid. And another theme of the show recently has been like hey, you can't really do a lot unless you have the data in place. But then I think you bring up an amazing point about the operational back end of that, because if you're going to go send out a bunch of emails on a specific thing, you better be ready to handle some of the inbound responses that come about. And that's something you got to think about Like what does that?

Speaker 2: 17:47

holistic lifecycle look like yeah, and you bring up a couple of interesting points there because you may think you know, you may think you have kind of this playbook or an idea and again you may be limited on what you can staff, how you can staff it.

Speaker 2: 18:01

Again, I think a lot of companies are trying to scale on that as much as they can and I think sometimes it's some alignment where you have to ensure that the CS team ops revenue product, like the idea is truly to grow a customer base, grow usage and ultimately hit to renewals right. So if your goal is, if everyone's bought into that goal of we need to keep our customers happy and keep them around, then great, we can all kind of agree on that and build the function toward that. But if sometimes there's competing priorities where revenue is more important or our brand names are more important or pulling in more logos is super important and they're not thinking about the long-term, then there can be some friction there. You can think about oh well, it actually makes more sense to shift this way and it's the whole idea of CS really in general kind of being re-emphasized in that way.

Speaker 1: 18:50

Yeah, and those things can be a massive distraction too. I've been part of organizations where there's definitely like a flavor of the month and the flavor of the month gets all the attention and then the running the business piece doesn't get all the attention, so it gets.

Speaker 2: 19:06

another really good benefit of having a digital and an ops team is that you can rest assured that while you're focusing on some of that flavor of the month stuff, that you've got regular like day-to-day customer operations in check right, absolutely, and we it's funny, you also just touched on data and I'm thinking about how, some of the times, I work with the team and they would say, oh, we want to send all these campaigns out, we want to do all this great work, but we don't have contact data in place yet, or we need to figure out how to pull the right data in before we can do that.

Speaker 2: 19:38

And it's definitely a balance of yeah, I get you want to wait, but I also think you got to start somewhere. So where is it where you have enough to work on, but that's not the final product, so you're just kind of starting with something in it. It's like a VMware. We were willing to kind of do some manual work to just to get started, right, and we were just willing to try things, and I think especially some of these companies like to just be willing to give it a shot, get some data in there and then start working with what you have, rather than waiting for everything to be perfect, right. It's definitely a balance of having to figure out where that point is.

Speaker 1: 20:09

It's really good advice, and I've been part of situations where execution has stalled because we didn't live in the perfect world that we thought we lived in. You know where you don't have to go right out of the gate with like hyper personalization, right. You can keep things general enough in your communications to where you're still conveying the message. You're still getting the information out there. It might be kind of a spray and pray approach where you're just getting it out to absolutely everybody.

Speaker 1: 20:40

But if you keep it general enough, I think that's a great way to start and to learn and to figure out what's working and what's not working. While you work on, you know the data cleanliness you don't have to you don't have to have it all figured out on day one.

Speaker 2: 20:55

Exactly, I would shine that light across the leaders and let them know it's okay, you don't have to be perfect with day one. You can work, grow as you build.

Speaker 1: 22:27

Yep and yeah, stuff's going to go wrong. But you know that's how you learn Exactly. Are there like digital emotions that you have seen or experienced yourself or built yourself that you think are kind of top notch or really cool or stand out in certain ways, like, are there other things that you've encountered in your career or in recent times where you've been like, oh, that's a really cool thing? You know, I wish more people did that.

Speaker 2: 22:57

Yeah, I mean, I think a few things. So I think number one is the most important thing to build with digital motion is that early on relationship. It's when A you have to ensure there's a clean handoff or a clean and very much understood approach of when the customer becomes a customer, when the sale happens and we're passing them over to CS. What does that mean? What does that look like? How is it scaled? And then, what sort of communication? Or how are we handling that from a digital perspective, right Is it? Do we send an email introducing everyone? Do we have kind of a three-step where we introduce you here, then we set up a time here and then we do a follow-up here?

Speaker 2: 23:35

And it's very much, I would say it's very important to be thoughtful on how that is done, because that is your first 30 days or so post-sale and you're really building that rapport, you're really kind of building that trusted relationship. So, even if it's a scaled model or a digital or one-to-many model, it's still the idea of you coming across as, hey, I'm here for you, I'm here to help, I'm here to be your customer success person. And again, whether it's a 100 emails you're sending out to different customers, but it's kind of the same consistent template and same process. That should be really ironed out, I think, from the first one as one of the first motions that you create.

Speaker 1: 24:14

Yeah, totally, I dig it. There was a. I'm trying to think who the company was. Oh, it was Ford. I just bring it up because the other day I experienced a pretty cool kind of situation with Ford where I had to take a car in for some service or whatnot and this dealership had their stuff, like their digital stuff, just figured out, fully figured out.

Speaker 1: 24:42

And you don't think about that with car dealerships necessarily, like you think of this like clunky, disjointed situation. So I don't, I want to get more information as to what was behind all of that. But long story short, I won't go into the super details, but the email communication and the text communication and the phone communication were all intertwined in a way where there was contextual relevance being passed between all of the separate conversations and I'm guessing there's some like cool transcription stuff happening there. I don't really know, there's definitely probably some artificial intelligence there, but basically, when I was exchanging actual messages with my service advisor, he had kind of full awareness of everything else that was happening with me in terms of the communications and the status of the car and the status of my loaner that they gave me and all this stuff. I was like Jesus, like why can't we all do that?

Speaker 2: 25:42

Yeah, that's awesome.

Speaker 1: 25:45

But I love seeing that stuff in the wild because those are the things that give you all the ideas and spark things, and I think B2C has always been real good at that.

Speaker 2: 25:58

Yeah, I think you're right. I recently had a birthday party for my now five-year-old and about a month ago we were trying to figure out where to have it and so we started kind of narrowing down places. We found this play place, locally owned, you know, a little while from here. So I inquired. They were really quick to get back. They sent very specific follow-ups. They sent very specific pricing information.

Speaker 2: 26:22

It was very easy to kind of get what I needed from them and it made very easy to kind of get what I needed from them and it made it easy to make that decision of okay, here's what I feel like it's going to be like.

Speaker 2: 26:29

If we have it here, it'll be as easy as for us as possible, because when you're kind of trying to organize this kind of stuff, you just make sure it's a location is easy enough for everyone to get to.

Speaker 2: 26:37

You can get in, get your stuff together, you know, have everything ready for you and then you can get out. And we learned again as parents of growing children that having it somewhere else and having that kind of all done for you is definitely the way to go. There's a much easier experience, so being able to kind of communicate with them directly, then sending us emails and kind of setting up a personal site for us and and waiting it's an evite to get invites out and then following up with how many are coming, and just all that communication was very much done digitally, and I know they have like dozens of birthday parties a weekend, so I know this isn't something that they do manually, right. So I had to think, man, they must have some really good back-end process here to do this right way and to make me as a customer feel like I'm important to them, right. So I'd say that's a nice shout out, an example of a company that is doing it right.

Speaker 1: 27:28

That is such a churn and burn business. My wife and I used to run a cooking school for kids and our bread and butter on the weekend was like kids' birthday parties. And, oh my God, this was. I mean, I'm dating myself, but this is, you know, 15-ish years ago.

Speaker 1: 27:45

So we were still on paper, man, it was like a paper notebook. All the details are written down there and coordination and all that kind of stuff. It took so much time to do that and uh, I'm guessing there's probably a vertical sass software out there for, like you know, birthday events, places, and if there isn't, then we need to jump on that.

Speaker 2: 28:09

Oh yeah, and especially like not only being organizing yourself but going to other people's where you're like wow sometimes it's great and sometimes it's like this is a mess and I don't really know what's going on. So there's definitely a difference.

Speaker 1: 28:20

Yeah, exactly, that's cool, well, awesome, as we kind of wind down, you know, one thing I always love to do is ask people what they're paying attention to and what's in your content diet in terms of books and podcasts and whatever Like. What do you pay attention to to keep yourself up to date? I know LinkedIn Learning is probably in that list, I don't know.

Speaker 2: 28:43

Yeah, absolutely yeah, I've been trying to consume more content. You know I've had a little more time to do that lately. So, as you kind of hinted at, I jumped at some certification opportunities from, actually from pindo. They have a series called mine, the product, and well, it's a little bit of a shift from cs. It still kind of can be applied and I could see a direct application to cs because it was about AI for product management and understanding product data and how kind of to capture that.

Speaker 2: 29:11

And Pindo is such an interesting tool because of what it is and what it does and how much it collects. And one of the challenges I think that I've noticed in a role where you're dealing with that is how much data you're getting, how much noise there is and how hard it is to kind of dig through that and find relevancies. So those minor product courses for me were really valuable and really something I found to be truly helpful. So that's one area that I found to be great Obviously, giving up with all the CS tools Gainsight, hubspot, all those guys and what they're doing and that shift especially on like the AI side and all Nick's posts about what he learned about AI. It's like so fascinating to kind of learn how much is changing even week to week with him. So that's been great. I have a plug for a podcast, rebels of Sass, with Dan O'Brien.

Speaker 2: 29:57

Yeah, she's great, and yeah, just really cool to hear some of the stories on different perspectives, different changes and kind of the way people are approaching these issues. So I love that. I'm going to shout out my CX Exchange folks, so Jan Young and her newsletter and some of the folks that are involved with that. So that's great. I'm involved with CX Exchange as well, happy to be a part of that group, and that's a great community. Also, plug Success Panda, which is another great resource for folks looking to either get it at CS or get some mentorship. I'll be appearing on a panel, uh, in a couple of weeks on digital customer success for them, uh, but it's just a great resource for anyone that is looking to develop in CS. So lots of great resources there as well.

Speaker 1: 30:40

Yeah, that's awesome. Those are all real good plugs. And then also, I mean there were already some shout outs in there, you know, but are there any other shout outs that you'd want to give to folks doing cool stuff in digital?

Speaker 2: 30:53

Yeah, I'll say Kat, who was on last week. I love her weekly post, she's great and of course, all the other folks that are presenting at the MatTik Digital CS Summit. So that's going to be great and really I'm sure a lot of them have been on here before, but if not, then I'm sure you'd love to have them on but really a lot of great thought leaders in that space.

Speaker 1: 31:12

Yeah, awesome, that sounds good. Well, look, we're doing the Matic thing in a few weeks. Sounds like you're doing some stuff with Success Panda too, which is great Always good resources. Where else can people find you, engage with you and to learn more about you?

Speaker 2: 31:26

Yeah, so my LinkedIn is very active. I'm on there posting pretty frequently. I've got a sub stack that I write pretty exclusively about CS ops, digital CS. I post articles in there pretty much weekly about kind of that journey, also kind of some reflections on my MBA and how that kind of correlates to CS. I've got my LLC set up, my consulting, so you can certainly find my website there and kind of learn what sort of services I'm offering.

Speaker 1: 31:52

What's your website? Let's plug it. What's your website?

Speaker 2: 31:54

It's just SuccessfulLayoffSolutionsLLCcom.

Speaker 1: 31:58

Cool. Justin, thank you so much for the time and all the knowledge and the insights Super appreciated. And yeah, see you in a few weeks, but again appreciate you coming on.

Speaker 2: 32:08

Thank you, Alex.

Speaker 1: 32:12

Thanks for having me. Thank you for joining me for this episode of the Digital CX Podcast. If you like what we're doing, consider leaving us a review on your podcast platform of choice. If you're watching on YouTube, leave a comment down below. It really helps us to grow and provide value to a broader audience. You can view the Digital Customer Success definition word map and get more information about the show and some of the other things that we're doing at digitalcustomersuccesscom. This episode was edited by Lifetime Value Media, a media production company founded by our good mutual friend, dylan Young. Lifetime Value aims to serve the content, video, audio production needs of the CS and post-sale community. They're offering services at a steep discount for a limited time. So navigate to lifetimevaluemediacom, go have a chat with Dylan and make sure you mention the Digital CX podcast sent you. I'm Alex Trukovich. Thanks so much for listening. We'll talk to you next week.