Speaker 1: 0:33

Everybody is sending emails and text messages and tweets and everything else and because of that it's my belief. It's all kind of noise, but sending a handwritten note really kind of breaks through.

Speaker 2: 0:45

Once again, welcome to the Digital Customer Experience Podcast with me, Alex Turkovich, so glad you could join us here today and every week as we explore how digital can help enhance the customer and employee experience. My goal is to share what my guests and I have learned over the years so that you can get the insights that you need to evolve your own digital programs. If you'd like more info, need to get in touch or sign up for the weekly companion newsletter that has additional articles and resources in it. Go to digitalcustomersuccesscom. For now, let's get started. Greetings and welcome back to episode 91 of the Digital CX Podcast, the show where we talk about all things digital in CX.

Speaker 2: 1:24

My name is Alex Tergovich, so pleased to have you along for the ride today, where I'm pleased to bring you an awesome conversation I had with David Wex, who isn't a staple in the CS community.

Speaker 2: 1:35

He is founder and CEO of Handwritten handwritten with a Y, w-r-y-t-t-e-n and I have recently used Handwritten I've also talked about it on the show a little bit to send literal Handwritten notes out to customers at certain events. We did our holiday cards this past season through handwritten and it's literal robots handwriting notes to your customers for certain events and I feel like the reason why I felt like it was a really, really important conversation to bring to you is because it combines this thing that I've been preaching, which is that combination of digital and human, where we can combine your digital emotions with human sentiment and human engagement. And you know, what better than a handwritten note to tell somebody that you actually care, or tell your customers that you care about them? So please enjoy this conversation with David Wax of Handwritten, because I sure did. David, I'd like to welcome you to the show. That sounded very like I was about to tell you off or something.

Speaker 1: 2:48

Yeah, you're scolding me. Thank you, Alex. It's a pleasure to be here. I'm coming.

Speaker 2: 2:52

Yeah, we've been working on this for a little bit. You are founder and CEO of handwritten, which is super cool. I've actually talked about you on several episodes. Do you want to tell us a little bit about what you do at handwritten?

Speaker 1: 3:06

Sure, the whole idea of handwritten is to allow people to connect through handwritten notes at scale. Everybody is sending emails and text messages and tweets and everything else and because of that it's my belief it's all kind of noise, but sending a handwritten note really kind of breaks through. The problem is nobody has the time the postage, the paper, all that.

Speaker 1: 3:31

So we allow you to do it at scale by using robots. So we have 175 to 200 robots here in our facility in Phoenix. Each robot holds a real pen and we print the card. So you can kind of do like a design your own card. You print the card, we write on the card, we stuffed it in an envelope, write on the envelope, stamp it and mail it. So that's what we do and, um, we do about 20 000 of these a day for everything from non-profits to individuals to car dealers etc. And it's my belief we're the largest in the world, but you know, maybe somebody else is doing more, I'm not sure. We're certainly the oldest pure play player in the game.

Speaker 2: 4:13

This is insane to me, by the way, like when I first learned about it and when I first learned about you and stuff like that, I was like, yes, because. So there's a couple of things here. First off, I've always been this really staunch believer in the combination of digital and human to serve the customer. And you are. Essentially. What you're doing is the epitome of that. 170-ish robots, yes, 20,000 a day. That throughput is insane.

Speaker 1: 4:39

It's a lot to keep track of and we are constantly building new systems to do that. But yeah, so that's really what we try to master is keeping track of it all at scale, and I think we do a good job, but there's always room for improvement.

Speaker 2: 4:56

Well, I shared this with you. We hadn't really spent a lot of time together when I did this, but a part of my new gig. We wanted to send out holiday cards and so I was like, hey, I know a guy and it was super cool because we uploaded I don't know a few hundred addresses and, a couple of clicks later, designed a card and off to the mail and I sent myself one as a test, obviously because I wanted to see what it was all about. And the thing that struck me is we all have gotten this kind of mailer before that's handwritten but it's obviously like printed, whereas your stuff it looks handwritten and the styles that you choose and whatever. We were super impressed by it. So you aren't sponsoring the show or anything like that. So there you go.

Speaker 1: 5:39

And you did it at our most busy time of year. So thank you, I did yeah.

Speaker 2: 5:43

So the pressure test passed for sure. But ultimately, I think there's a lot of power in this whole thing. Just because we've been talking about when our customers quote unquote, graduate from implementation, we should 1000% automate a handwritten note that goes out right and you do cool stuff like you can use tokens and insert first name and do all that kind of fun stuff right. So we're talking about that kind of stuff and I think that the human element needs to be part of all digital motions, whether it's a card, whether it's a quick follow up phone call, whether it's some kind of social acknowledgement or whatever. And I think this is one of those tools in the toolkit for a digital practitioner to use.

Speaker 1: 6:27

Yeah, and that's your point on automation. I mean, that's really what we preach. Like we have a plugin for Salesforce, but if you don't automate through Salesforce and you just add a button that says send handwritten note, they do it in a one-off fashion. Yeah, the first 10 will go out, but then good luck after that. So we really want people to automate, not just because it's good for us financially or keeps our lights on, but because it keeps you doing what you need to do and kind of your internal compliance and, you know, making sure everybody has a consistently good user experience. So yeah, like if you sign up for a big plan with us, we'll automate a handwritten note to you from me, we'll have my signature on it, which we do signatures and all that and then I'll include like a little gift swag kit with some handwritten cool stuff. But there's a book called I had it on my desk actually Creating Superfans.

Speaker 2: 7:22

Yeah, that's a good book.

Speaker 1: 7:23

If you have it on your show, I recommend you do. But she talks about what it means to create superfans and we've implemented a lot of that, the S. So super stands for something like the S is share your story. So when I send out these notes saying, hey, alex, thanks so much for investing in handwritten, I started this company because yada, yada, yada, yada and I try to then create that personal connection with our big clients. So the medium, but then it's also the content, and the content is so important.

Speaker 2: 7:52

Yeah for sure. Content, and the content is so important. Yeah for sure. Hopefully the intent is that the receiver doesn't know it was written by a robot right. Yeah. So, speaking of that journey, tell me a little bit more about that. What was the impetus to start it, what's your background in, what led you to it and what was the humble beginnings of Handwritten?

Speaker 1: 8:11

So Handwritten started. Prior to Handwritten I ran a text messaging company for 10 years eight years and then I sold it in two more, so 10 and that company was. We actually started in the real estate space where you tend this would be. This is a long time ago, it's before the iPhone and all that. So you drive by a house, you'd want info on the house. There'd be an empty flyer box and there was no Zillow. Yet You'd see a sign on the top of the real estate sign. It would say text X to 30364 to get info on the house. You'd text that special code. You'd get info on the house. The realtor would get a lead. Then we kind of pivoted away from realtors to just general purpose texting and we worked with clients like Abercrombie Fitch and Toys R Us. We were sending a million texts a day just for Abercrombie Jeez and sold that company. So at that point I had 10 years of messaging experience, right like sending a message. So then I went from a quick, short message to a long, slow message.

Speaker 1: 9:13

You know what I mean A text message that was read immediately and deleted. We did handwritten notes which are savored and kept. So that's kind of where that came from. And I'm not saying handwritten notes are better than texts or vice versa they serve different purposes. But I will say, handwritten notes these days really help you stand out, because not very many people are doing them.

Speaker 2: 9:35

It's funny. So when guests come on the show or if somebody contributes to the show in some meaningful way, I've been sending out handwritten notes with a little bit of swag, kind of what you described earlier. This is, of course, before me knowing about you. There is a lot to be said for that handwritten communication, because so many people just don't do it. We're busy, we have notifications flying left and right. The last thing you think about doing at the end of the day is sitting down to write that note and collecting your thoughts. Enough to do that.

Speaker 1: 11:27

In the olden days we used to write a lot with our hands and we don't do that anymore, and I for one have noticed that just handwriting stuff, like after two or three cards, I'm like yeah, I know there's all those studies on on being appreciative, and if you're appreciative and say thank you, it makes you happier and I think there's a lot of truth to that too. So there's a ton of benefits of this, and this really has nothing to do with my company. It's just there's magic to sending a handwritten note with an I. But when you get to a point where you can't send enough of those, then call a company like handwritten with a Y and we can help you.

Speaker 2: 12:02

So if, if I were to walk into your production facility today, I'm picturing kind of a white room type situation, probably somewhat noisy, a lot of activity gotta wear earring protection like. Is it a clean room type thing? It's like down and dirty warehouse it's actually very nice.

Speaker 1: 12:23

Warehouse space is expensive right now for whatever reason, so instead we got a great deal on some space that used to be a big mortgage office, so it's an office. We ripped out all cubicles. We don't need the high ceilings of a warehouse and in Arizona that becomes very difficult, very expensive to air condition. So we have high ceilings for an office, but not high ceilings for a warehouse, and we just have rows and rows of robots stacked three high, and there's robots that are set aside for envelopes, robots that are set aside for notes printing. We have two large-scale digital presses to print custom cards and then card cutting machines and envelope insertion machines and just a lot of mail house stuff is in here.

Speaker 1: 13:08

But as far as clean room, it's clean because I'm an eat freak for the office, but it's not clean room and it's actually kind of on the quiet side. Nowadays Our new robots are pretty quiet.

Speaker 1: 13:19

So, it's interesting, it's not what people expect. And then there's a whole other element of the office where we're building new robots. So it's a bunch of kids sitting turning screwdrivers and we've got 3D printers and laser cutters and circuit boards that we design and get made in China and shipped to us. So there's a lot of it's really an art and a science in one building.

Speaker 2: 13:42

It sounds like it. You'll have to send me a picture and I can include it in the show notes or something. But we just got into 3D printing at our household. Is this like the size of the robot we're talking about, like a standard 3D printer size?

Speaker 1: 14:00

Yeah, it's kind of like the size of a laser printer in cubic volume. So it's about yay, big, maybe two to three feet wide or two to three feet long and about the same wide and a foot and a half tall. The big thing is reliably feeding paper. Feeding paper is easy. Feeding stuffed envelopes or envelopes in general is difficult. That's why when you get your laser printer at home or whatever it's, one at a time, it's because that poofiness and that inconsistency of the flap side and the non it just makes it very hard to feed. So we've put a lot of effort into building reliable feeders of stuffed envelopes and we're on iteration like five for that. But yeah, we use 3D printers. We used to use very expensive ones and now we've kind of moved downstream. And it's interesting because the 3D printers are XYZ coordinates and our handwriting robots are XY and then Z is pen up and down. So it's very similar technology to what's inside a 3D printer.

Speaker 2: 15:02

Fascinating. I feel like I could go on and on about this, but it's also maybe members of our audience don't appreciate the technical side of it as much, but it's super, super cool. So I'd love to talk a little bit more about kind of the use cases. We've talked about the basic use case of sending a thank you card at the end of something or those kinds of things. But I'm sure you have a file drawer full of interesting use cases that folks have used, handwritten for.

Speaker 1: 15:32

Well, what I'd like to say is if you do anything too unique, it becomes a promotion or a campaign and not a CRM initiative. I like to keep things easy and leave them a CRM. So what does that mean? That means thank you for your order or thank you for your business. Most of what we do is thank you. I'd say 80% of what we do around here is thank you notes. And then the other part is birthday, anniversary, anniversary of business, and then other, but the number one is thank you.

Speaker 1: 16:05

I always preach on podcasts what I call a full stop thank you, which means you're not asking them to refer a friend, you're not asking them to use a coupon, you're just saying thank you, because if you do anything else, you're washing away the thank you and insincerity. So don't do that. The fact that somebody chose you or chose your company or your product, that deserves a thank you. In most use cases I'd say and nobody does it. And if you do it, you'll stand out. And then people say well, what's the ROI on that? And then I get into a philosophical debate with myself of, like, what's the matter with people where they need an ROI if they don't do? But better said by a guy named Albert Einstein. He said not everything that matters can be measured and not everything that can be measured matters. To fully quantify the ROI is going to be very difficult. What you could do is a long-term A-B test where you send thank yous to some people and your jerks to other people and you don't you know inappreciative to the other, and then see the lift there.

Speaker 1: 17:10

But I can give you some clever use cases. We have a mailbox company. It's a snack box company. Okay, they send snacks to your office and they found that when they screwed up maybe they delayed the box or it had the wrong snacks or never arrived or whatever They'd follow up with another snack box full of swag and that type of thing and a handwritten note apologizing. And they found that those customers that had the win back, the apology, et cetera, actually had a higher lifetime value than people that were never screwed up with in the first place. So then, a obviously send the win back. But why don't we send the win back? Why don't we screw up with everybody and win back everybody?

Speaker 2: 17:56

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Speaker 2: 18:36

Now back to the show. Yeah, yeah, that's such a smart thing and I've definitely found that throughout my career is when something bad happens. I almost look forward to the opportunity because A it's kind of like a fun little game and challenge, trying to deescalate and solve the solution and all that kind of stuff. But it's also your opportunity to show your true colors, who you are, how you operate, what your philosophy is as a company and, to your point, like nine times out of 10, if you recover well and you're sincere and you're forthright with a great solution and all that kind of stuff, you're going to build lifetime customers versus if everything's just hunky dory moving right along.

Speaker 1: 19:21

Yeah, I mean before the show. You asked me if I had any examples of companies doing CS right and I got to say I'm renovating my backyard. We ordered some grilling equipment from BBQGuyscom. The side burner came to my house. It was expensive, it was like $1,000 or $30,000. It came and it looked like somebody had jabbed the box with a forklift. It was just destroyed.

Speaker 1: 19:45

First of all, they shipped it. It was a big heavy box full of stuff. They shipped it and arrived the next day, which was super impressive. Then, second of all, I called my designated contact at BBQGuys and I told them what happened. The next all I called my designated contact of barbecue guys and I told them what happened and the next day I had a replacement and they followed up with me. I didn't have to follow up with them. They, their head of customer service called me and said we just want to make sure you got the replacement, everything Okay. So it blew me away and it's all about those, aren't? You don't want to create those moments, yeah, or screwing up, but when you do screw up, you got to handle it appropriately and they've really done a great job so when you had that talk with the head of cs, there were you, like I know something that could make this even better I did not.

Speaker 1: 20:32

I did not. I was just like, yeah, I came, thank you so very much and yeah, but they really they did the right thing. So that really went a far way. You asked about use cases. We have another client. They're a piano tuner and they're only in your house once a year because your piano only needs to be tuned once a year, and then they have an automation set up to send that person a thank you note saying thanks. That handwritten note is often standing up on the piano. So not only is it open, not only is it red, it is on display, it is a billboard for the brand on a piece of equipment or a piece of furniture that is free. Of billboards I mean of any piece of equipment or furniture it's the most free. So it's very unique in that it cuts through the damage, creates that big of an emotional response.

Speaker 2: 21:29

It's right there next to the family portrait. Exactly what would you say? Your maybe rough percentages of tech versus tangible kind of a goods provider using handwritten kind of a goods provider using handwritten.

Speaker 1: 21:49

Most are tangible, which is interesting because they have a little bit of a harder. They have to get the okay. So our client mix is car dealers, it's nonprofits, it's we do a lot with veterinarian service providers, so there is a huge opportunity there to assist them. But they also have to connect systems or whatever to get that data in. With online brands. We have a Shopify plugin that within five minutes you can set up and then it will automatically send every new client a handwritten note, or after they hit a certain threshold of spend or whatever. And we don't have that many of those.

Speaker 1: 22:24

But another story, a counter example, was a perfume brand. They make a very, very high-end cologne and perfume. I was in the mall with my wife and kids and we went into a department store and that department store they had a stanchion set up or whatever an area set up for that cologne and I walked up and I was showing my wife and I said we do the handwritten notes for this cologne and the store clerk ran over and said no, you don't, I have to write those notes myself. And then what was happening was online. Their online sales were receiving an automated handwritten note every time and it was consistent and appropriate. Et cetera. The offline sales, they left it to their store clerks and after they were busy merchandising and selling and clearing out the cash register and all that stuff, they never got around to it, so the online has actually a huge opportunity to create a more personal experience than the offline.

Speaker 1: 23:27

Huge opportunity to create a more personal experience than the offline and some crazy huh for another luxury brand. We handle both online and offline. Yeah, so well, with the offline we'll put in the name of the clerk they worked with and their phone number and all that stuff that's so cool.

Speaker 2: 23:40

Well, given, I mean, this audience is mostly SaaS software CS, so maybe you'll see an uptick in SaaS software companies coming on board.

Speaker 2: 23:52

When we first talked about this among my team, we were just brainstorming all these different ideas, and I mean the most obvious one is one I've already mentioned is a customer gets through onboarding and we send the owner or whoever a thank you card or whatnot.

Speaker 2: 24:05

The customer gets through onboarding and we send the owner or whoever a thank you card or whatnot. But one of the things that I preach with regards to customer success and digital customer success is it's very easy for us to routinely look for the opportunities to engage when something goes wrong, but, on the flip side, we don't do nearly enough to celebrate our customer wins Right, nearly enough to celebrate our customer wins right. And so I think, as we were talking about this, we were like okay, what are those moments where we want to capitalize on? What are those little moments of success? Maybe it's a new user that's onboarded, although that could get excessive. Maybe it's somebody completing a certain flow or upgrading to a new module those little moments that you want to help celebrate and solidify that the decision was a good one and we're happy, the partnership, blah, blah blah, like all those kinds of things, and so it was kind of fun just sitting down and thinking through what the possibilities were.

Speaker 1: 24:59

Yeah, I mean, we have other clients that we have a pet food brand that sends a card that can be turned into a hat, a little happy birthday hat to the animals on their birthday, and then you're supposed to just take a picture with this on your pet's head and then there's some viral aspect there. There's a lot of things you can do with this, a lot of fun little things. I try to steer away from that because I think sometimes if you get too creative, it's going to become a one shot, one and done and you're not going to keep it ongoing and people tend to overthink stuff and want to be the genius. It's just thinking about where in the life cycle can we do this every time, all the time, to make sure everybody has a consistently good experience?

Speaker 2: 25:42

Yeah, and what doesn't erode from the intent, which is to reward but also just drive that positive sentiment and do something meaningful? Yeah, At the right time. So I mean, you kind of alluded to it a couple of times, but what have you seen? That has just not worked or gone completely wrong completely wrong?

Speaker 1: 26:12

That's a good question. What's not worked? Well, we, I guess it works for them, but I found it weird. We have or had a client. They were for a YouTube morning show and if you join their fan club and this is an old client they would send you a handwritten note from us. But they had a very it was the same note every time. Dear Alex, it's the exact same note every time.

Speaker 1: 26:37

And they were sending us photos or screenshots off Instagram of people so excited about this. They posted to Instagram. I said, well, or Twitter or whatever. And I said, well, why don't you mix it up? It doesn't cost you anything to change the language, so everybody doesn't get the exact same note. And I just thought that created kind of an insincerity. They should have spent a little bit of time just shuffling the messages for a mattress company, an online mattress company. They were using us for a long time and then they stopped and we said, well, why are you stopping? They're including these handwritten notes in the boxes of the mattresses. And they said oh well, we did that when we were a small company and we're trying to create a personal relationship. Now we're a big company and we don't need to do that, and we're just like oh, and argue with that that's just how do you can't argue with.

Speaker 1: 27:22

I don't want to insult my clients, I'll stop there. So those are kind of interesting.

Speaker 2: 27:33

The variables are very interesting there. I think that's a very smart point, because if you're using the same motion with the same kind of persona within a company or within a target audience, chances are that at some point they'll figure out that, oh, this is the exact same thing.

Speaker 1: 27:49

So we always say mix it up. And there's ways to mix it up that are painless on your side. And, for example, with this mattress company, we included little doodles, so like one person would get a picture of a moon in the stars, hand-drawn, or somebody else would get somebody dreaming of their cat, and we had a bunch of them. So if you were to say, furnishing a new home, every time you open a box you'd have a different surprise and delight cool. So there were some cool things there too. Some other bad ideas, I think, are making your message too long oh you know, instead of we try to limit you to 500 characters.

Speaker 1: 28:27

There's a couple reasons. Number one our robots. Actually, the longer the note, the longer it takes to write, therefore the more expensive. But we're also living in a Twitter generation where everybody has 160 characters of attention span. So if you're going 500, you're kind of reaching the asymptotic limit of what people are willing to read. People that do full letters versus cards. I think, A it's very expensive because we have to charge you for robot time to do that. B nobody's going to read it. Nobody's going to believe that. You sat down and you wrote, you know, you pulled out a quill, tip a feather and started writing my dearest Alex. Nobody's going to believe it. So keep it short, yeah. Keep it focused on appreciation, Keep it in a card. Those are that's kind of what we do.

Speaker 2: 29:18

I love it. My son recently for Christmas. He is kind of into vintagey, kind of 20s, teens, 20s, 30s stuff. He wanted a tap typewriter. So we got him like a refurbished like vintage 20s, mid-20s typewriter and the thing is so cool. It brought back a lot of memories because I'm of a certain age where we had a typewriter in the house and so it was kind of cool. But he's been using the snot out of it just typing various things and it's such a cool, visceral thing that we're not used to anymore. It goes back to almost a lost form, that written communication type. Situation A hundred percent.

Speaker 1: 30:04

And the most important thing about a handwritten note ideally an actual handwritten note is the time and focus you put into writing it, not the note itself. And even if people know that you used a service like ours to write a note, they know you at least took a moment to think of something different to do. And while that's not the same as sitting down and putting pen to paper yourself, it's second best, I'd say. So it really is somebody equated and I found it very interesting. They said sending somebody a handwritten note the next best thing is walking into a meeting with them and they take their phone and turn it off. Because when you send somebody a handwritten, you're basically saying, okay'm gonna be distraction free and think just about you for the next five minutes for me to write this, um. So there's real value there and people really appreciate it, because before this podcast I had to go in and turn off all my email and teams and phone. It's hard to find focus these days and people appreciate it when you go out of your way to do that.

Speaker 2: 31:07

Yeah, for sure. One of the things I was thinking about earlier when we were talking about integration and all that kind of fun stuff, is just like the data element of this, because I know in SaaS software we struggle with clean contact data and I think that's a struggle everywhere because ultimately, at the very least to do this thing right, you need an address and we need probably a first and last name, maybe ideally and ideally it wouldn't be like all caps first name and normal last name, cause that's like a dead giveaway kind of situation. But you know you also do great things with being able to use tokens within your messages too, so that if you wanted to thank somebody for their purchase of a specific thing, you could include that in a token. Uh, carefully, but it requires some. It requires some data prowess to be able to do that.

Speaker 1: 32:07

We're constantly having people say our bulk upload tool is too difficult. And I get it. It's an Excel file. Not everybody can use Excel. There's other ways to do it. There's a lot of ways we allow people to do it, but we haven't found the perfect way With Zapier. If you're familiar with Zapier, you can go in and do data fields that way too. Anybody that knows Zapier should be able to figure it out. It's not rocket science. Another thing, to your point of gotchas, things not to do, especially when you're selling a product. If you have an automation, I don't recommend mentioning the product name because it's going to be like hey, Alex, thanks so much for your purchase of the bifold leather.

Speaker 1: 32:49

Yeah, watch, with coin purse blk005 instead, what you want to do is you want to go up to the category level? Okay now, hey, thanks so much for your purchase of the wallet. So that's how we've gotten around that.

Speaker 2: 33:03

A lot, if you like you can probably create an alternate field that's specific for handwritten or something. Yeah, interesting, but that's been a big thing we've learned. That's great. Well, look, I've really enjoyed kind of getting a peek behind the curtain, so to speak, of the thing that I tested. That worked really well and I'm a huge fan of and we've already connected Zapier. We're going to get crazy with it a little bit, but to your point, not too crazy.

Speaker 1: 33:31

But where can people kind of find you and engage with you? Obviously, handwrittencom, with a Y, it should. I should mention yeah, please visit handwrittencom H-A-N-D-W-R-Y-T-T-E-N and if you're interested, go to business and then hit samples and get a free sample kit. And I don't say much on socials, but you can connect with me on LinkedIn. I'm not going to sit there and hold my chin and wax poetic on it.

Speaker 2: 33:54

Well, hey, thanks for taking the time to chat with us. I'm hoping that the digital leaders that are listening to this, or the CS leaders that are listening to this, check you out and use it as, like I said earlier, an additional tool in your toolkit to be able to create those great customer experiences. But thanks for the time. It was awesome chatting with you.

Speaker 1: 34:12

Thanks, alex, right on.

Speaker 2: 34:15

Thank you for joining me for this episode of the Digital CX Podcast. If you like what we're doing, consider leaving us a review on your podcast platform of choice. If you're watching on YouTube, leave a comment down below. It really helps us to grow and provide value to a broader audience. You can view the Digital Customer Success Definition Wordmap and get more information about the show and some of the other things that we're doing at digitalcustomersuccesscom. This episode was edited by Lifetime Value Media, a media production company founded by our good mutual friend, Dylan Young. Lifetime Value aims to serve the content, video, audio production needs of the CS and post-sale community. They're offering services at a steep discount for a limited time. So navigate to lifetimevaluemediacom, go have a chat with Dylan and make sure you mention the digital cx podcast sent you. I'm alex trukovich. Thanks so much for listening. We'll talk to you next week.