Yeah. Years ago, if you walked into a bank with a mask on, you got arrested. now if you walk into a bank without a mask on, you get arrested. You get arrested. So, you know, the world's the world's kinda done a bit of a 180. And once again, welcome to the digital customer success podcast. I'm Alex Turkovich. So glad you could join us here today and every week as seek out and interview leaders and practitioners who are innovating and building great scale CS programs. My is to self educate and bring you along for the ride so that you get the insights that you need to evolve your own digital customer success program. If you want more info or you need to get in touch or sign up to get the latest updates from us, go to digital customer success.com. But for now, let's get started with today's show. Welcome to episode 11. Pleasure to have you here. today's conversation is with Simon Chris, who is incredibly involved in just the CX world in general and has actually written a new book, which is out now. I think it just the best seller list on Amazon, actually. It's called the, AI empowered customer experience. definitely a good read. Lots of great use cases in there. So we talk about that in our conversation. We spend a lot of time talking about innovation and what it means to actually innovate rather than just using the buzzword innovation. One key takeaway is that a lot of times, you know, it takes slowing down to move faster. It takes really taking a that back, understanding what your goals are, and then, you know, really moving forward on those goals in a in a coordinated manner. really insightful individual. I hope you enjoy this conversation with Simon Chris. I know I sure did. Look, I I am excited to talk to you today because, not only are you, I guess, a self described according to your LinkedIn profile, customer experience futurologist, which I'll I love that, that that that name, but also you you're an adviser to many, many boards, many executives. You know, you, you have your own, you know, series of pod Cast, which I'm sure we'll dig into a little bit as well. And I think very recent as of very recently, your chief innovation officer at customer experience, innovation Institute, and definitely wanna learn a little bit more about that. But is there anything that that that you don't do is my question? according to my wife, I don't do enough housework. gotcha. Outside of that, That's that's familiar. Yeah. I got you. well, you know, you've you've done so much And I don't think it's worth, like, digging through your your CV per se, but I I would love just a little bit of a, I guess, your CS origin story and and where you, you know, where you decided to go down CS or CX kind of route, what kept you in the industry, what Yeah. And and what it is about your psyche that kind of keeps you here? Yeah. and that's a great question, Alex. Thanks. So I you know, I I need to reel you back about 35 years ago. I was working at a at a company selling curtains and blinds. And, I started to see the emergence of this word telemarketing in Australia. So I thought, well, you know, this is something new I can I can jump into. So I did. And I spent the numb most of my career in contact centers. And a story I love to tell is that in those very early days when I was a team leader, actually. There was a the group manager of this big telco call center that I was working in said to us, got all the team leaders together and said, you know, if you get hold of this call center thing, it'll take you anywhere you want to go. and I remember thinking, what a load of management BS? I actually had to find her about 10 years ago, she'd since retired. Of course, I had to find her and thank her for that advice because she was right. contact centers and therefore kind of customer experience have taken me all around the world. I lived in Hong Kong for 15 years. worked across Asia, worked across Europe. It's it's just it's it's been spectacular. So the things that kinda keep me in this is just that It keeps growing. It keeps changing. It keeps evolving. And I love that. I'm an innovator at heart. I can't help it. I'd look at something and I don't see what it is. I see what it could be. sometimes that's a curse, but that's that's just the way I'm wired. and CX keeps changing. Either we get tech changes coming through or we just see changes in the customer base. You know, what COVID has done to customer expectation is absolutely monumental. So, you know, there's been a tectonic shift, and let alone all the work from home stuff. So it keeps changing. It keeps evolving. And so for someone like me, It's a great industry to be in. Yeah. It's, the the the COVID situation definitely accelerated a lot of, I think, like, like, tooling and and norms in the industry. I think that that, you know, prior to like, for instance, one of the things I was talking to somebody else about, recently was the resurgence of the QR code, because everybody kind of written off the QR code for a long time. And now you walk into any restaurant or bar. And the way that you read the menus by scanning the QR code, you know, and it's it's those kinds of things that I find fascinating that have that have kind of, you know, seen a resurgence because of COVID. Yeah. Years ago, if you walked in a bank with a mask on, you got arrested. Now if you walk into a bank without a mask on, you get arrested. You get arrested. You know, the world's the world's kinda done a bit of a 180. Yeah. Yeah. It has. I, one of the things I saw on your profile was that you I think recently, a a year or 2 ago, did, I guess, a program at Harvard Business School Disruptive Innovation And Strategy. can you enlighten us a little bit about that? It sounds Yeah. Look, that's that's an an online course with Harvard Business School, and it's probably one of the best short sources I've ever done. it it was designed by the late Clay Christensen who is a bit of a godfather around innovation. And it really starts to pull apart what innovation is and how it manifests itself. So Innovation isn't just a single word. It's there is efficiency innovation. There's sustaining innovation. There's catalyst innovation. So, you know, I'm sure at some point in this podcast, we're gonna talk about generative AI. That that is catalyst innovation. A technology has come along that's now driven. So just looking at it from a completely different view and looking at how companies try to disrupt themselves, but actually can't. and what how does that differ from new disruptors that come in? And we're seeing that so much in the in the digital CS space. particularly around knowledge management. There's the old there's the, I won't say old. There's the existing knowledge management players the names you would know, the Verint's Live Pros, Panviva, or upland as they are now. they're this, they're and they're currently trying to jump into generative AI, but coming at it from the other side are these set of disruptors, that are that are building a knowledge base on their generative AI system. So, you know, companies like Brainfish in Sydney is a is a is a great example of of companies that are doing that. So, that whole course was really just looking at how does a company start to realize that its current sustaining strategy is dying, and what does it do to propel the new thing? Yeah. I, this is slightly off topic, but kind of on topic. You know, I, I like to play corporate buzzword bingo with some folks when we're on, like, calls or whatever. And innovation is one of those words that's on the buzzword bingo card that I think we could probably remove based on your description because I I think, you know, I I I think we're surrounded with it. And especially this resurgence of generative AI or surging generative AI where you have, you know, a fundamental shift in what technology can do for us much like you did in the industrial revolution or the -- Correct. when internet came to be a thing, so I'll I'll love your description of of how, generative it fits into kind of innovation and what people are doing around it. So Yeah. He's the real kicker about innovation, though. And, you know, you're right. It has a bit of an overused buzzword is I work with a lot of company boards and a lot of C Suites. And most often when I get together with them, they are, yeah. Yeah. We're we're we're innovative and we're we wanna do innovation. And I say, okay. How do you do innovation? Yeah. And almost without fail, they can't answer that question. So they lean on the C suite to say bring us some innovation, but they don't say what kind of innovation or what does innovation look like? So I spend a lot of my time teaching company boards how to innovate. So I've run 1 day hackathons with company boards, and we'll put 4 or 5 big things that are affecting the entire world up on the wall and start trying to hack around the and I, you know, I'm talking global warming, the introduction of generative AI, the the massive shift to work from home you know, all of these these things that are affecting every industry to try and teach boards what it means to be innovative. because it has literally become a buzzword that they throw out left, right, and center, but they don't know how to execute on that. Mhmm. that's you see that everywhere. Right? Every every SaaS company is an innovator. Unidentified. That's right. I think I think I think what you're describing is is fundamentally you know, sitting down and identifying, you know, and and and the good the good ones do this. Right? They they identify what is the core problem you're trying to solve around these massive, you know, problems? Like, what what what is the problem you're trying to solve? And then that becomes, you know, your company OKRs, and then that trickles down, but it all comes from this place of like, okay, what are we gonna do to solve this? And and how are we gonna do it differently than than others? There might I on the right track there, basically? Yep. Absolutely. And who is your competitor? And-- Yeah. -- when you ask when you ask a C suite and a board, who is your competitor? If they're Chase Bank, they say, oh, well, there's this bank and that bank and that bank. And I'm like, no. they're your known competitors. You've got a whole pile of unknown competitors that you're not thinking about. You're not thinking about that startup that uses AI to offer investment advice that Vira, a bot that that's the one you've gotta be looking at. So, yeah, it's a it's a whole lot of that stuff. It's just yeah. Sometimes it's just about helping them create the time and space, right, to stop, think, and innovate because they're so busy going bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, every day, They don't have the time. They don't make the space to do it. Slam on the brakes. Think about it for a while and proceed with caution. -- around. Work it with you work it with your peers, bounce ideas off each other. That's where you're gonna get some real breakthrough. That's amazing. As a great example, I was I was doing this with a group a large group of WFM workforce management people from a major global BPO. And they were all talking up. We were talking about how do we innovate workforce management. Now, we're, well, we could publish the roster this way or we could ask people preferences, blah blah blah. And I just kept pushing them and pushing them and pushing them because I wanted to get to a certain point. And finally, we hit point, and one of the guys said, we're trying to solve the resource problem. What if we solve the demand problem. What if we didn't let customers call in whenever they want? What if customers had to set up a time and we called them so we could the demand. Now, you know, would that work for this given contact center or whatever? I don't know. But you want to get to that point where you're breaking people's thinking and having them think differently. That for me is what real innovation is. Yep. Step out of norms. I love it. speaking of innovation, we talked a little bit about generative AI. By the time our listeners, are hearing this. you will have published a book about generative AI and all kinds of goodness. We talked a little bit about it, just a minute ago, and I was very excited. I can't wait to read it. Yeah. And and I, I know that you're going to discuss in your book, you know, around just use cases. And and the the there have been a lot of use cases kind of floating around in recent months weeks and, you know, account summaries and all that kind of fun stuff that we're gonna be able to do in the promised land of generative. Yeah. But, I would like to I would like for you to maybe expand on that a little bit because I think there is the near term and the stuff that we're all excited about, but what's what's beyond that? And and what's the tech that's gonna, like, tie all this together in your opinion? Yeah. What a great question. And thanks for the chance. free chance to plug my book. it is it's gonna be available on Amazon and and it's called the AI empowered customer experience So there's the plug. it's really interesting what's happening right now. in almost every McKinsey paper, BCG, whatever reported in the Wall Street Journal. It's there's generative AI, and they're gonna make great chatbots. And that's fantastic. That is an absolute use case, and it's a wonderful use case, but it's not the only use case. There are a whole lot of use cases for how the customer you know, how the CS experience can be enhanced, but there's a ton that can also be done to enhance the employee experience, the EX. Alright. The little helper on your screen that helps you through, the way in which knowledge management is just radically being overhauled. And then there's a whole lot of things use cases internally. So as an example, in 2023, Why is anybody sitting point deck that nobody reads. Why are we doing that? Let's have generative AI go to all of the data sources raw and maybe listen to 2000 calls and 2000 chats and bring all of that intelligence up and use an avatar service like Synthesia to create a 2 minute video that can go to the CEO, they can watch it. And if they've got a question, they can just ask AI and it'll tell them the answer. You know, there's there's so many great use cases and it's technology that's here now, but it's in pieces. So we've got companies like Deepgram leading the way on, how quickly you can turn voice into text. And they're down to, like, a 300 millisecond delay. Wow. So I saw them. Yeah. I saw a demonstration where they fit in a 1 hour podcast, and it took 12 a half seconds to turn it into text. so, you know, you've got that great technology. You've got people doing amazing stuff in the quality space like Daisy. You've got, you know, all of these players doing all of their all of their bits and pieces. And so right now today, if you want that use case, You're kinda going back to the days of the Franken stack a little bit. I'm gonna get this from here and this from here and this from here. So what we haven't seen yet. Yeah. What we haven't seen yet is what's happened with, you know, CCaaS and all those types of things where you know, I wanna be everything to everybody. So I'm either gonna build it or I'm gonna buy it, but I'm gonna own the entire end to end. We're not seeing that in ai yet. What we're seeing is, oh, I can write this little bit of code and it can leverage these 2 other 2 or 3 other AI vendors And together, we can have an end to end experience. Now at some point, laws of business tell us that there is going to be some form of consolidations, some form of, you know, one of the big players will come in, you know, in moment someone like that will will just come in and, you know, start acquiring and and building out end to end. So for me that I think that the the step forward where this is going in technology is that AI is gonna start to direct new business cases. AI is gonna start to identify things going on in the business that it kinda says, you know what? We need to solve for this. And then somebody is gonna have to build that tech. But the last thing I'll say about ai is it's one of the few times in the history of the planet where the technology has out dripped the use cases. Alright. It happened many years ago with the steam engine. and my good friend Chris Gillan keeps you know, taking us back to those industrial industrialization times where the steam engine came out and it fantastic, but everybody stood there and stared at it and go, when what would I do with it? Yeah. Mhmm. Then the same thing happened with the internet and the same thing's happening with It's racing ahead. You can barely keep up. I can't keep up with everything that's happening in And yet, people are still struggling to find the use case, the true use case. So the idea of the book that I've just written is that it's full of a whole pile of use cases to say, you know, consider this. And what I'm encouraging people to do is find one use case and go and build that, go and work for that, and then slowly build it out. But we we seem to have a bit of FOMO and FOMF So FOMO is fear of missing out. So people are just running out and buying the first shiny thing that has the letters AI on it, even though they don't know what they're gonna do with it. You know, it's some, I I heard somebody the other day describe it as they're trying to use a rocket ship just to cycle down to the corner store And the other side of that is Foameth, which is fear of moving forward. And so we've got companies that are just paralyzed by we don't know AI. We don't have any data scientists internally. We don't have capability. We don't and that they need to move past that too and start to find a use case that at least gets their toe in the water. Yeah. I I love that that honing in on a very specific thing. I saw a post recently by somebody. I I forget who it is, but I follow somebody that, you know, tracks AI trends or whatever. And it was like, 100 AI, you know, startups that are doing cool stuff. And it was like this massive thing of, like, all these different startups doing stuff with AI. And I'm like, I I who I don't have time for that. Like, I I cannot that, like, makes me wanna shut down and put myself in a dark room and just, you know, disappear. Yeah. Look, in March, in March, there was 1064 new AI applications launched globally. A 1064 in 1 month How does anybody keep up with that? No. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. but, yeah, to your to your point, I'm I'm looking forward to reading your book because it, you know, I do agree much much like with any, you know, what what I would advise any digital customer success team to do is pick one thing, maybe two things that you really wanna go after and put all your focus to that. And once you've done that really well, like, move on to the next because it's it's it's not logical to just try to tackle everything at once. Yeah. Look, I would I would say if you're looking for first steps around AI. Yeah. First step is put together a bit of a Delta team. don't let ai don't let, sorry, IT control the narrative on this. Pull together a Delta team. You can come up with a better name. I'm sure. But you know, somebody from marketing, somebody from customer from customer service, a tiger team, there you go. Somebody from IT, get get them together and let them dedicate their time to just starting to investigate what's out there and what they could do and what use cases they might have. and then develop that out further. And they can report back to the c suite and say, okay, here's where we are. We've gone and spoken to 20 vendors. We've we think we've got in this. That's the that's the first one. The second one is immediately the C suite need to start thinking about building an ethical framework. because if you don't get your ethics right, if you don't get your bias under control, if you don't get your responsibility guidelines in place, you are going to fail horrendously. So it's about knowing what we can and can't do. What do we as a company believe is ethical and moral. And in the book, I talk through a couple of examples of that. Is this ethical, or is this ethical? it comes down to values. and organizational value. So that work needs to be done. Agree wholeheartedly. shifting gears a little bit. This, you know, this is the digital customer success podcast, and I would be remiss if I didn't ask all of my guests the same question, which incidentally will be turned into a word map on the website posthaste, but I would love from you your elevator pitch, if you were to describe digital customer success to somebody in 10, 15 seconds, what what would you say? So it's about taking customers the customer success from a reactive position to a proactive position. In the past, we demanded that customers came to us. They must come to our website to find our phone number or to find our chat now and they had to do it our way. We got to dictate. The way in which the the digital customer success is moving is that we are now taking that experience to them. So if you have a whole pile of your customer base or potential customer base, that you know is sitting in Discord, you better start offering service via Discord. You better start offering service via what app. You better start offering service via, you know, whatever that channel might be. And so for me, the digital customer success is taking customer service, taking sales, and support, and all those functions, and projecting them out and saying, I'm gonna come and meet you where you are. part of that is also meeting the expectation that the customers have about can they self serve? Most customers are very happy to self serve If that self-service is easy and quick and it makes sense, they'll do it because then they don't have to let's face it. If you don't have to talk to somebody, you don't. and for me, that's what digital customer success is. It's about projecting forward rather than forcing people to come to you. I love that. Meet the customer where they are. I dig it. Yeah. We're doing we're doing a little bit of the CXII is doing some research right now. the actually a field works done, and I've had a sneak peek of what the results are, but it's being written up. And what we've done is we've interviewed 2000 youth between the ages of 14 and 19. And we've started to ask them, what do they think customer experience is? What do they think customer services? What works for them? What doesn't? What brands? What types of brands are they engaging with? Who aren't they engage with, and what would make them engage more in the future. So what do they expect? And how strong is a parental influence? And some really surprising results are coming out. And I'll sneak one out here. It's nobody else has heard this yet, Alex. Oh, exclusive. 50 per 50% of this group of fourteen to nineteen year old, Jen Zeds, when they're having a customer service experience, do not feel in control of that experience. They just don't feel in control of it at all, and they hate that. That quarks them. So you know, companies are gonna have to start to pivot to meet the needs of these customers of the few as they they come on board. Some of them are their customers already. Some of them are about to become their customers. And the and the big and the big shout out is really to government These kids are just not engaging with government. They don't care about government. They don't wanna talk to government. all they see is this big bureaucratic machine that they can't possibly touch. Particularly when you compare particularly when you compare government to say Netflix. Right? There's there's a pretty big difference there. And that, you know, to be fair, the government probably doesn't wanna talk to them. Yeah. That's right. Which is interesting. we mentioned at the outset that you you've you've served in an advisory cap capacity for for, you know, a lot of -- Yeah. -- a lot of companies and a and a lot of executives in the I would I would I would love to understand a little bit more about some of the some of the blunders or some of the missteps that you've seen companies take when they try to adopt a digital program or try to engage customers in a scaled way. Oh, this just became a 3 hour podcast. Yes. It is. no. Look, the the the biggest the biggest blunder I see is assuming that then that the leadership team of that company know what their customers want. They just seem to make this big natural assumption that when they talk about what customers want, Well, let's get the head of operations, the head of customer experience, the head of marketing. Let's get them in a room, and we'll be able to figure it out. they don't they don't talk to the customers, and they don't even bother talking to the frontline people, be that people in the shop front that are at the counter, people in the contact center, people that are seeing what's happening on the web. They don't they just don't engage with that. And that is probably the single biggest blunder. Sorry? Mhmm. they'll then they'll gladly tell you if you ask them. Oh, absolutely. with a company I was working with actually, we were looking at the the employee experience and I said, so why don't we SMS 500 people that have left the business in the last 2 years? And we did and something like 260 of them replied. So I said to the CEO, these people didn't just leave they left with passion. There was a reason that they left. Yeah. And it's the very same thing in the customer experience. If you start talking to those customers, Those that are very passionate are definitely gonna come out and tell you exactly what they think. Absolutely. So there's a uh-uh there's a few other little blunders, you know, like buying the tech buying the tech that you see at a conference because it looks sexy at conference, but you have no idea what to do with it. or where one of the senior executives goes to what I call the airport business school. So they were in the airport sitting in the lounge. Nothing to do. Picked up the Harvard business review or picked up some business magazine, time magazine, read in there, you should build chat box. So they come running back to the business and say, we should build chat box no rhyme or reason other than they went to the airport business school to find out about it. Yep. Sitting that in sipping on a beer in a bar. Oh, we should do that. We should do that. Yeah. That's a great idea. Let's do that. that's amazing. You've you've dropped so many lovely tidbits and whatnot. I would I would like to understand a little bit more, kind of, as we close out, what's in your content diet? Like, how do you keep yourself fresh and informed in terms of books and podcasts and you tube and whatever your your sources are, we wanna know so we can divulge them. Yeah. Absolutely. I do like to read I like to to just kind of keep up with with books. if somebody's looking for a book on innovation, I abs absolutely recommend when written by, David can't think of his surname, the editor of wired magazine. The book is called non bullshit innovation. That is the title. Like And it is absolutely what that book is about. it's just fantastic page after page of examples of true innovation in businesses. I do listen to a few podcasts, Alex. Listen to listen to yours. listen to there's probably 2 or 3 I'm I'm blessed or cursed with living on 15 acres of land, and that means a lot of time mowing So it's a great time to just stick in the headphones and listen to podcasts while I mow several rate acres Are you on a tractor? or are you sitting on? I do have a little tractor. My wife says I look like forest gump. sitting out there and doing the doing the thing on the tractor. but I listen to podcasts there. So yeah, there's a number of podcasts. There's a, a wonderful one in Australia by the CSIRO, which is our big research organization here in Australia. And it's called Everyday AI. and it just demystifies AI a bit. So I spend a bit of time listening to that one. Other than that, just connecting with the right people and the right groups on LinkedIn, and watching the content that comes from those people that often spawns more thought, more questions, things like that. So if you do nothing else, expand your LinkedIn network Whatever your network is. Whatever whatever your network is, design on doubling it. You know, it's that's such sage advice, and we don't get that often because people, I think have this preconceived notion that networking is hard because It used to be hard. You used to have to go to events, and you used to have to, like, you know, meet people. And now it's so easy to expand your network online in in a really relevant way that aligns. You you know, we talked about a couple. If you're genuine though, Alex, if you're genuine. Of course. So if you're just reaching out to people saying, Hey, let's connect. So I can tell you about my product. They're never going to connect. But if it is a genuine, hey, we seem to know the same people, I've been following some of your content. Really love it. people then will sense that genuine connection and will connect, and that's where you can really start talking. Always send a note and always read their profiles. Absolutely. Oh, nice. you mentioned a couple of podcasts that you listened to. I would love understand a little bit more about some of the podcasts that you have and are launching. Yep. So we have one launched and the other 2 this week, actually. so the one we have launched is called CX Sessions. And it's just a little bit like this, just having great discussions with CX leaders around the world. all forms of CX, not just contact center. We're talking to one of the upcoming ones is the managing director for cabin crew for one of the major airlines. I won't give away boo. talking about what does CX mean in the cabin? And, you know, so we're we're really kind of trying to mix that up around what what does CX mean in these various businesses? I've just interviewed a winemaker. that doesn't have a cellar door. to talk to him about what does he think CX is and how does he control his customer experience when somebody else is selling his wine? so there's that one. The second one is the CX boardroom, and that's where I'm I'm having these wonderful discussions every day with C suite CEOs and and company directors. And I don't know that other people get to do that. And so I've kicked off a podcast where I'm just interviewing, company board members and CEOs, and it has to be kind of the CEO title. around what does CX mean in the boardroom? How is it impacting or influencing board decisions now? has that changed since COVID, that type of stuff? And the third one is the fun one that I'm really looking forward to doing is called CX Disruptors And that's talking to people who can I use a rude word? People who are doing cool shit. Who people who are doing cool shit with tech? really, really cool stuff. you know, people who are really starting to break new ground with some of the tech that they're doing. And I I wanna talk the people behind those ideas, the people who, you know, how did you even think of this idea type of thing? So, Yeah. There'll be a number of a number of pods rolling out. That's exciting. And that kind of leads to my next question, which is is there anyone you wanna out anyone you wanna give kudos or a a shout out to that's doing some of those cool things, maybe more digital CS related, but in CX in general. Yeah. Look, there's I'll call out one that's flying under the radar a little bit. It's a company called IDverse. they really are breaking the mold on how you do identification and verification to ID and V. down to everything being done from your mobile phone. So they're doing face analysis and comparing that government held documents like licenses and passports and things to be able to verify that it's you, but they go beyond that. they also make sure that it's you and that you're alive, like, so you don't get weekend at Bernie's type thing. And hopefully, people get that reference but so they look at is there a little pulse here? Are they seeing blood blood movement in the blood vessels on your face. That's incredible. Is the background behind you moving? Is it, you know, like, so to try and avoid being tricked by generative AI that This is Simon Chris. They're actually, you know, down at that level. Really cool tech. the other one would be a group out of New Zealand called Soul Machines. they have an avatar service that when you use it, you have to turn on your camera and they're analyzing your face while you're interacting. So if you frown and tilt your head a little bit, the avatar is likely to say, is there something you don't understand about that because they understand that that motion means people are confused. If you start smiling, the avatar starts smiling, like, it's, you know, it's our robot. You know, I need to figure out where Arnold Schwarzenegger lives because, you know, the robots are coming to get But the, yeah, there's some people that are doing some really, really cool tech. so We talked about the book. We talked about the podcasts. You're all over LinkedIn. you do all kinds of, you know, speaking engagements and whatnot, but, you know, is there, you know, how can people find you engage with you? know, grab some time with you if they need it. Yeah. Look, the the best way to grab me is via LinkedIn. it's just Simon Chris, one word. It's not a big fancy thing on LinkedIn. you'll be able to find me. And I accept every request that that kinda comes through. So, you can connect with you can connect with me there. Or you can go to the website, cxii.com.au. and and leave us a message there. you know, there's my WhatsApp details and everything are on the website. So reach out any which way you like. I'll, I'll be out there. Well, Simon, we battled a couple of technology challenges but we've got it done. I really appreciate all the knowledge that you imparted on us and, and, you know, can't wait to speak with you in the future. Awesome. Thanks again, Alex. And I'm loving the show. Keep doing more, Robert. Thank you, sir. Thank you. Thank you for joining me on this episode of the digital customer success podcast. If you like what we're doing or don't for that matter, consider leaving this review on your webcast platform of choice. You can view the digital customer success definition word map, and get more information about the show at digital customer success.com. My name is Alex Trickovich. Thanks again for joining, and we'll see you next time.